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A conversation between readers and the editor of The Morning Journal in Lorain, Ohio

Saturday, March 27, 2010

Scenic river proposal has an ugly side

Barbara Ramirez said ....

I just read the article about the Vermilion River becoming a scenic reserve.The article says that many support this idea.Well,I say to them that the government has ABSOLUTELY NO RIGHT WHATSOEVER to take those people's property!!This is downright OBSCENE, and anyone in favor of this, had better step back and think about just what in the world they are trying to DO!! The majority of that property is PRIVATELY OWNED AND IT SHOULD STAY THAT WAY!!This IS still America, IS IT NOT?!? We have the RIGHT to own property, AND KEEP IT!!
I suggest you go to the website called Freedom Advocates.org, and order the booklet called "Understanding Sustainable Development-Agenda 21," and READ IT. The government is trying to take away private property rights, and kick people off of their land, in a scheme to CONTROL US.It has nothing to DO with conservation.They will TELL you it is for conservation purposes, but the bottom line is CONTROL PURPOSES.Get the booklet.Fight this, or none of us will have any rights left!! 


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23 Comments:

Blogger Kevin said...

What is the point of republishing right-wing conspiracy theories here? How does that help advance productive conversations?

March 27, 2010 at 10:28 PM 
Blogger Tom Skoch, Editor, The Morning Journal said...

I have known Riverside property owners elsewhere with serious objections to restrictions tied to scenic designation
It's worth debate to them.

March 28, 2010 at 12:48 AM 
Blogger Kevin said...

Reasonable people can disagree about the value of the designation. However, I fail to see how the quoted material could be the basis of a rational discussion. What did you hope to gain by posting it here?

March 28, 2010 at 1:06 AM 
Blogger Tom Skoch, Editor, The Morning Journal said...

Everyone has their own way of expressing themselves. Disagreement is not a reason to deny a forum to a person.

March 28, 2010 at 11:28 AM 
Anonymous Barbara Ramirez said...

If you agree that it is okay for the government to come in and take control of land,ANYBODY'S land.Then I hope you are NEXT.The government has absolutely no right whatsoever to take control of someone's land.
The people involved here only got ONE notice,and that was in this newspaper.Most of these people have no idea that the government is taking over their land,and within 30 days of this bogus 'notice' it is supposed to be a done deal.How would you like it if they decided that the property on which your HOUSE sits could be better used for a park?They don't give you any personal notice.They just come in and say you're out.I'm not saying that is happening here,but if they can take control of people's land this way,that procedure could be NEXT.We DO have the right to OWN property,AND the right to do as we please with it.NO ONE has the authority to take control your personal property this way,and if people don't start fighting this oppression,then there is no hope for us.You can call me whatever you like,you wimpy government owned people.How dare you even call yourselves Americans? If this issued doesn't make you angry,then you should move to a communist country where you'll fit in better.
The whole idea of this is completely IRRATIONAL,so how do you think you could get a rational discussion out of it?
This would me like me saying I'm going to take your car and use it any way I want to,but I will leave it in your name.How rational would you be as I'm driving it off down the road?

March 29, 2010 at 5:51 PM 
Anonymous Miles R Heilman said...

To the editor:

You do realize that you yourself prescribed against the digital "SHOUT in print on paper or online" just this weekend, right?

As for the topic at hand, I would suggest that you do a story on this issue to bring more light on it for your readers. I for one am curious about the specifics and would prefer to be more informed before I form an opinion.

March 29, 2010 at 7:51 PM 
Blogger Tom Skoch, Editor, The Morning Journal said...

The original post in this thread refers to the story we did that ran a couple of weeks ago. It can be found online at http://tinyurl.com/y9c2tzw

Does anyone local have further information about the topic and the potential impact on landowners? Please share it here.

March 29, 2010 at 9:20 PM 
Anonymous Miles R Heilman said...

To the editor:

You do realize that you yourself prescribed against the digital "SHOUT in print on paper or online" just this weekend, right?

I didn't see anything in the piece referring to any eminent domain issues. How much land is being claimed by the state? How many homeowners does this effect? What are the details of the side of the story that Mrs. Ramirez is so upset by?

March 29, 2010 at 10:36 PM 
Anonymous Barbara Ramirez said...

Contact Representative Terry Boose's office for details.His number is 1-614-466-9628.He is against it.His office said we should contact the Lorain County Commissioner's office with complaints, which I intend to do.I do not own property there, but if the government can get away with this with these people, then your property could be next.If it's wrong, it's wrong.
I have spoke to several of the property owners about this, and they had no idea it was happening.The state apparently thinks it's okay to take people's right to use their own property as they wish,without even notifying the people that they are doing it.
Please do a story on this.It is outright thievery, and those behind it should be held responsible.
I would have gone to the meeting but I just found out about this two days ago.
If you need a reporter for it,I'm available,and I won't slant the story to make it sound like a "wonderful thing." It isn't.We're talking about real people, with real lives, who should have the right to own property and do with it as they so please without the government stepping in and taking control of it.
I apologize for the capital letters, but sometimes it is really hard to get a point across to people who are so stupendously impervious.(How was that for no capitals?)

March 30, 2010 at 12:24 AM 
Blogger ge13031 said...

http://ohiodnr.com/watercraft/scenicrivers/tabid/2310/default.aspx
"Scenic river designation does not affect private property rights."

March 31, 2010 at 2:37 PM 
Anonymous Barbara Ramirez said...

First,I would like to explain that I got this information from a friend.He got the information from the Vermilion Photojournal,and also this paper.
From what the V.Photojournal says,the designated area(s) would be a twenty five mile area along the Vermilion River,including 1,000 feet on each side of the river.This is to be "designated" as the area in question.
Anyway, to make a long story short, I called the Ohio Department of Natural Resourses, and was told that this designation will not infringe on property owners rights to do as they please on their own property.(I find this hard to believe, myself, or why would they specifically say 1,000 ft. on each side, etc..etc..)
I am supposed to be getting more info. about this tomorrow.
From what I understand, the V.Photojournal led one to believe that restrictions would be placed on this land, restricting owners rights.
The metroparks already have placed more restrictions in this area than they had any business doing.
Regardless of what the final truth may be, given the facts of how our government operates, I would not trust them to "designate" ANY lands that are now private property.They change the laws every day, and I personally would not even want them nosing on my property for ANY reason. If I had to vote on this issue, my answer would still be,"No."

March 31, 2010 at 7:12 PM 
Anonymous Barbara Ramirez said...

NEWS UPDATE
I just received a copy of an article published in the Elyria Chronicle which says that the Vermilion River designation is one of "PROTECTION."This word in itself should say a lot to property owners there.
The article (dated 3-27-2010) also gives a statement saying that this action would protect the river from development or alteration.
I just spoke to Kwaitkowski,of the ODNR Division of Watercraft offices in Sandusky.He denied that property owners would lose any rights in this deal.I asked him why the newspaper said the above, and he said that newspapers often get things wrong.I then asked if he had posted a disclaimer, and he said,"No." He tried to make it sound that the river would be protected from governmental harm, such as bridges or sewers going in, etc., but that the private property owners would not lose any rights.Now if you think I believe that one government agency would turn against another, yet still allow a private property owner to do what they wish, I'd say he thinks I'm stupid.
I also told him that government laws change every day,and who's to say that if property owners agree to this now, that the laws won't change down the road,saying that the property now belongs to the state? He had no comment to that.
Then I told him that it wasn't right for his offices to do this without notifying EACH individual property owner.I said that a lot of people do not read the paper.Maybe some are too busy working, or just don't read. It is totally unfair to them to not know what is going on with this!
Needless to say he was not too happy when I finished.
I sent him to the website FreedomAdvocates and told him to read about how the government is deliberately taking people's property.It is called the U.N.'s Agenda 21.He said he would read about it, and I sincerely hope he DOES.
Now I'm off to make copies of information for the homeowners who live along the Vermilion River, so they can be informed INDIVIDUALLY.
Have a nice day!

April 1, 2010 at 2:40 PM 
Anonymous Barbara Ramirez said...

Only 1 in 10 people visited had a remote idea of this "Scenic River Designation." The rest hadn't heard anything about it at all.Most were very upset about it, and agreed that it must be stopped.Some of these people had already lost property to the metroparks, and were the most angry about it.
We spoke to Brownhelm Township Trustee Orrin Leimbach, and he knew about the project, and said that he was against it.He personally owns river property.
He said that when the trustees were approached about the project,that the state said that it was ONLY A STUDY, so the trustees approved it.They did not know that this would be the RESULTS of the study.This newspaper's article about it said that the Brownhelm trustees SUPPORTED THIS.Orrin disagreed with this.They supported the STUDY ONLY.If a full investigation is done, I believe you would find that a lot of these "supposed" supporters would tell you the same story.Misleading journalism? In this instance, yes.
We told the property owners that were home to go to the Brownhelm trustee meeting this Monday at 7:00 P.M., at the old elementary school.Many said that they would be there, and some of them were pretty darn mad. Should be an interesting meeting!
We only got information to about 70 property owners, but will try to get more in the next couple of days.
We spoke to one man who went to the meeting at the Mill Hollow Carriage Barn, and he said that the former mayor of Vermilion was there.(Jean Anderson) He said that she was in favor of this thing, and he told her that since she was not one of the property owners involved, that she should stay out of it.And he is right.This man has lost a lot of property to the metroparks, and knows that even though the state can say it's a "good" thing, it never is in the long run.

April 2, 2010 at 10:11 PM 
Anonymous Barbara said...

Me again. Just read President Obama's Easter address. That isn't "local." What's the deal, Mr.T.?

April 3, 2010 at 8:56 PM 
Blogger Tom Skoch, Editor, The Morning Journal said...

What I mean is nobody can be all things to all people. You have to pick what you're best at and do that. When everyone does that, all the bases get covered.
We provide at least one page daily with the top highlights of national and world news in print, plus links on our Web site. But local news is our main reason for existing. Readers can find national news in a million places, but they look to us as the one best source of local news about the Lorain area.

April 3, 2010 at 9:30 PM 
Anonymous Barbara said...

That is a cop out, I'm sorry.The television news will not tell people this story, and the newspapers won't either.So unless someone researches it online or gets news through freedom fighting oganizations, the public won't get the story at all.That is part of why this country is in the shape it's in, is because the medias refuse to TELL people what is really going on in Washington.By the time people find out, it is too late for them to protest, and I call that a crying shame.(!) I think the medias are controlled and WON'T report these hot issues. I get news all the time from freedom organizations that one will NEVER hear in the medias, and I think that is dead wrong.Our medias are keeping the news back that people NEED to know.I could list dozens of these issues that are never heard in the news.
For you to say that you can't please all of the people all of the time is a lame excuse (pardon my rudeness..) for not telling people the important news that they NEED to know, and which has the potential to greatly change their lives. The whole purpose of even HAVING the medias is to get news on these issues, and if an organization won't do that, then they are worthless. So you are telling me that you don't think it's important for people to know that President Obama is trying to pass legislation that could require finger printing, eye scanning, etc., and if people do not comply, that they might not be able to KEEP A JOB?!? You have got to be kidding me that you won't do a story on this?! It's not IMPORTANT? Hello? Some people rely solely on your paper for their news. How could you say this is not important?? Sounds more and more like China to me..Let's not tell the stupid sheep what's really going on because they might try to stop it, and we can't have any of that going on.

April 3, 2010 at 10:17 PM 
Blogger Tom Skoch, Editor, The Morning Journal said...

Didn't say national ID wasn't important.
I said we've written about it.
I said you and I are talking about it now on the Internet on this news organization's Web site, and that means this conversation is available for everyone in the world to see and to become aware of and follow up on.
I guarantee that here in the 21st century nobody relies solely on one publication or station or network for their national and world news. But thousands of our subscribers do rely solely, or virtually so, on The Morning Journal for news about the Lorain area. That local news is our reason for being in business. Nevertheless, right now, right here, we are addressing the issue of national ID.
To construe all of this as deliberately hiding the issue from the public is to veer off the road of reason and get lost in the weeds of conspiracy theories.

April 3, 2010 at 10:46 PM 
Blogger Tom Skoch, Editor, The Morning Journal said...

To follow up on my reply above, Barbara has sent me a copy of a Ron Paul fund raising letter (which I won't post here) for an organization that shares her concerns. You can find their Web site, with information about national ID and more, here http://www.campaignforliberty.com/

April 3, 2010 at 10:58 PM 
Anonymous Barbara said...

I tend to disagree with you. This issue is one of great importance, and should be printed in the paper. Not hidden on a blog site that people have to deliberately search for to find. Sure, SOME people may find it, but how many people visit this blog? I'm not stupid. This story should be made readily available, in their face, front page news. Not this little blog site that people would be lucky to find.
And you can call it a conspiracy theory if you want to, but until I see your paper make news like this readily available in large print, (not hidden on some back page in small print,) then I will continue to say that this newspaper is CONTROLLED. If your paper has already done a story on it, then please send me a link.

April 4, 2010 at 12:03 AM 
Anonymous Barbara said...

Oh, I like that."Shares HER concerns." Like this wouldn't be THEIR concern. You are a piece of work, Mr.T. You know as well as I do, that when the government starts talking about finger printing and eye scanning, that EVERYONE is going to be concerned, that is, unless they are half dead.And it is your responsibility to see that they GET this news. Wow. An Obama Easter speech makes the paper, but a NATIONAL I.D. is refused coverage..SCARY..(!)

April 4, 2010 at 12:18 AM 
Blogger Tom Skoch, Editor, The Morning Journal said...

OK Barbara, here are some links to national ID coverage of various types that has appeared in The Morning Journal over the past several years:

http://tinyurl.com/ya4cgp3
http://tinyurl.com/yhup3xr
http://tinyurl.com/yhhpho2
http://tinyurl.com/ygcw5kh

As you can see, during the Bush years and soon after 9/11 there was support for the idea, along with privacy concerns. I can't imagine The Morning Journal supporting the idea of a national ID card today.

Also, note that the e-mail from Ron Paul that you forwarded to me was a fund-raising solicitation. Stirring up concern about issues that aren't exactly on the front-burner anymore is a basic tactic used by issue-oriented organizations to raise funds.

FYI, The Morning Journal did not endorse Obama and has been a frequent critic of his administration.

Things written on the Internet are not hidden and obscure. When people are interested in researching a subject they typically do a Google search and that uncovers anything written anywhere once a Web page has been indexed by Google. More people come to a newspaper Web site as the result of Google searches than come in through the "front door" of any newspaper home page.

After that, if you still think this local newspaper is part of some kind of government control conspiracy, you're welcome to your opinion, and I'll leave it at that.

April 4, 2010 at 12:39 AM 
Anonymous Barbara said...

Well, I searched the first two and found nothing in the regular search or the archives.
I have never known Ron Paul to be a false alarmist.I think there is a very real threat here, or he wouldn't be petitioning it. I do not, and have never given this organization money.
I get petitions all the time from various freedom fighting organizations, and contrary to your belief, they really DO fight to maintain our freedoms against REAL threats, and not purely for donations.There are many groups that I have NEVER donated to, and yet they keep me on their mailing list because they know I will sign the petitions when our freedoms or liberty are at stake.
The words "intersted in doing a search," in your last comment is the problem. Basically, you are saying that if anyone wants to know this majorly important news that they will have to:
#1. Have the thought of a national I.D. on their mind.
#2. Be CONCERNED about a national I.D.,even though the MEDIAS haven't mentioned it..hmmm.
#3. Decide in their minds that they are going to do a SEARCH on the internet about it, EVEN THOUGH there has been no news saying a word about it.
#4. Actually follow through, and do the search to see what they can find.
Now how LIKELY do you think this is going to happen.
I just KNOW that people are running around everywhere thinking about, and researching this topic, EVEN THOUGH the medias haven't said a peep about it.
As for this site attracting thousands of readers, I can tell by my lonely posts that this is a real happenin' place, and thousands of readers are going to read this before this insane bill could be pushed through cogress just like the healthcare bill was.
I never said that this paper was or was not in favor of this.It doesn't matter. It also doesn't matter whether they are in favor of Obama or not.
The bottom line is that this could be a very REAL threat to american's freedoms, and the local paper is unwilling to INFORM their readers of it. I personally think that this behavior on the paper's part should be illegal.I have actually heard people say that if an issue is important, it will BE in the paper! A lot of people have that MISCONCEPTION. They are DEPENDING on YOU to see to it that they receive news like this.And you know in your heart that I'm right, and that you should do the story. The Bible says something like,"to know to do right, and do it NOT, it is a sin." That isn't perfect, but it's close to that. Another quote which applies to this situation is,"Educate and inform the whole mass of people...They are the only sure reliance for the preservation of our liberty." - Thomas Jefferson
That quote doesn't say, "Lets hope the people can THINK of the threats to their freedoms so they can SEARCH for them, and then maybe do something about it." Let's not wait to inform the people until after the bill gets passed! Warn them now, when there is still a chance that they can try to stop it.
How will it hurt you to do this?

April 4, 2010 at 1:52 AM 
Anonymous Barbara said...

Hi Mr.T.,
I am still expecting a reply to the above comment, but I have an update on the Vermilion River deal.
I spoke to a trustee of Henrietta Township, and he said that they are working on rescinding this. He also said that they were tricked by the state into believing that it was only to be a study, not a takeover.
I spoke to a Brownhelm Trustee this morning, and he opposes it too.(There are three so far, that oppose this, and they all say that the state did the same trickery of lying to them, saying that this was only to be a study, not a takeover. They do not support this, contrary to what this newspaper printed. (Very misleading to the readers!)
I will know more tonight at the Brownhelm Trustee meeting at 7:00 P.M..4-5-10 (today's date)
We handed out another fifty notices today, informing people of this, and many said they would come to the meeting. We shall see.

April 5, 2010 at 4:38 PM 

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